As for giving the 'damned' (an English word that has changed in meaning since being put in English bibles) their 'just desserts', in Jesus' day there were two common words for what we think of as "punishment". 60. You first have to make the text fit your interpretation. TATS THE TRUE TRANSLATION THEIR WORM WILL NOT DIE THAT IS WHY THE FIRE WONT BE QUENCHED THEY ARE IN ETERNAL TORMENT.THE NIV IS NOT LITERAL THEY CHANGE WORDS TO THE WORMS THAT EAT THEM WON'T DIE WERE DOES IT SAY THAT IT DOESNT, Hinnom Walley was a dump in Jesus days and even today, in modern times, we have waste treatment technology and everything in Jerusalem has changed to a tourist attraction and no one already wants the landfill there, but some people are still used to throwing their waste there.https://www.google.com/maps/@31.7686626,35.2333475,3a,56.6y,328.92h,103.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szm6A_bN1OCNC7ikOFCcVTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656, Your email address will not be published. and rules called canons. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. The Gray Waste of Hades, also known as the Gray Waste, was an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model, home of the daemons. It was a sanitation dump because the city of Jerusalem was above the valley and the filth was allowed to flow into the valley. Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. Though a duration of time is the most common use of the word, just as with most any word, there can be different meanings depending on the context. Everything is all tied together in one. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. Required fields are marked *. [What has that got to do with it. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - posted in Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism: I've long accepted (without checking - shame on me) the argument that in NT Jerusalem, the valley of Hinnom contained a permanently burning garbage dump, and lay behind the use of Gehenna as a metaphor for complete and total destruction. Again, the torment is the separation. Not necessarily TO those in the fire, possibly TO OTHERS ABOUT THOSE in the fire if they are already in it, they don't need examples. 2:8 for additional contextual support. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. He just told his audience that if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. His judgments result in righteousness, and the end of the Lord is mercy. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. And as far as Rabbi Kimhi goes, note that even he stated the alleged dump of Gehenna became an analogy for the judgment of the wicked, which demonstrates that even the first writer to make this connection saw it to be an analogy for the place that the wicked will be judged. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. It is not difficult to see, from these and other texts (e.g., 2 Kgs 23:10; 2 Chr 28:3, 33:6; Jer 32:35), why Jesus and his contemporaries used the word Gehenna (valley of Hinnom) as synonymous with the place of everlasting fiery torment. The Myth of the Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna. This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). The explanation for the fire of Gehenna lies not in a burning trash dump, but in the burning of sacrificed children. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. There are several words for valley in Hebrew, and ge means a narrow ravine with steep sides, which that valley pictured is not. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. The picture of the valley itself proves that it gas been filled in with a huge amount of fill. It is translated "hell" every time. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. Where is the record of an uproar over them? The "captivity". Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. Thanks for posting. The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. It was an interesting article and I am glad that you were not trying to disprove eternal punishment though at least one person wanted to think otherwise. The "ravine of hinnom" (Gehenna) was the city garbage dump in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? According to the Jewish scholar David Kimhi (c. 1160-c. 1235 C.E. During Jesus' time, it was the city's garbage burner. "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. Your email address will not be published. Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. Gender matters: women and religion, 1960-2000, Barbara Brown Zikmund. ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago We seem to just read right past those verses. The Hebrew word is used in relation to people. I thought the Passover lambs were all sacrificed on the Temple Mount. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. Does that make the Bible false? Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. Cog of Blood. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks know as 'brimstone' were . "In any case, Gregory Naziznen was allowed to preside over that council.". I also find it hard to be confident in any council since they often allow someone to have a leading role who would be declared a heretic a short time later, like the case of Marcellus you brought up.There seemed to be a lot of see-sawing going on. (v.23) Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? Mark 9:47 / Jeremiah 32:35. In the context, it's a "causal" from (could even be translated as "by" as this Greek preposition is translated elsewhere in the NT) not a "spacial" from see 2 Thes. At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. Are you serious? If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. So if "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek", we suddenly arrive at "age-during" instead of "eternal life", Thanks for turning Christ's wonderful promise into a banality, even more so when the "age" only endures until 70 AD. What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. We are not all doomed as so many believe. I thought, Anon, you didn't have time. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. Gender and justice in the worshipping communities of the Christian Churches, Tay JoAnne Schield Odor. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). Its a blank slate until this commentary pops up. Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. Neovia group's Profile, Revenue and Employees. Brimstone used to be added to fuel the incineration. Did Isaiah lie? Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". Is. In the other dozen or so, to get the idea of "eternal" you have to read it into the words "aion" and "aionian". However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources. No, it means the valley pictured is no longer a steep ravine because it became a landfill, and today is a city park. Councils made positive definition of faith (e.g. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! No matter how many times people say this and it has become street truth there is no evidence that there was a town dump outside Jerusalem in the first century. I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. There are quite a few verses in the gospel expressing the same idea in different words, e.g. goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved.". "For thus says the Lord God: I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.". The references to fire in Is 31.9 and Is 33.14 envisioned Yahweh's power as bringing vengeance on Israel's oppressors (Is 33.10 - 12) rather than a fire . Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. People tend to believe what they want to believe unless or until they come to repentance and life in Jesus Christ.. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. dumpsite, rubbish dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. PDF. I can use the common meaning of words in scripture. The gulf represents the uncrossable separation it is not meant to keep the saved from going over there because they have no reason to do so, as they are with God and His people. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. And again, the worms and fire are figurative the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". About the other direction he didn't ask. Where are you getting this? Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. Rome? The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. You are right about the two Gregory's too. After all, Samaria did not return either but found successors that, though unconneceted with the northern kingdom, called themselves Samaritans. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. Paul turned a Christian over to satan for the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH. And that's probably what Jerome is after, distinguishing between this end-less but not time-less eternity and the God's eternity without such constraints, wihtout beginning or end. Mark 9:45. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. Only the latter is grounds for personal condemnation. activies, not statements of faith). For this reason, it became the city dump. Everything! Gray land and gray sky throughout, with no sun . It was because Gehenna outside the city of Jerusalem was the place where the bodies of criminals were burned and when the . Theres nothing before that. I've always thought that this was an established fact. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . You are also disrespectful towards the damned it is one thing, as God does, to give them their just deserts, but quite another to simply blot them out from existence and pretend everything's fine. Isa 66:2224 As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the LORD, so will your name and descendants endure. So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". Jesus actually talked of kolasis aionian temporary correction/discipline. Still, because it seems like a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as "hell," commentators and preachers have accepted it. It is amazing how many things we take as "established fact" that simply are not true. What has that got to do with it. Thats it. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. But of course, some know-it-all flippig through pages will know it better! Seems a little disproportionate to me. The moth does die. "With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse . What is supposed to come after salvation? The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. The "kingdom" of the Son will one day be turned over to the Father, and one of the epistles describes Jesus ruling it UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, so the parables about the kingdom and the wedding feast do not have to be describing the final state of "the Kingdom". Why is there this belief that there is no redemption? The Valley of Hinnom ( Hebrew: , romanized : G en-Hnnm, lit. Words can indeed mean different things at different times, with different context and different people. And why should it? Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder's Dull Griet, 1561 . Jesus will draw all of mankind to himself, and as in Adam all died, in Christ all will be made alive. Outline of Biblical Usage [?] In Mark 9 is Jesus taking a literal prophecy in Isaiah and using it as a parable of something "eternal"? There were people in Rome long after universalism was known in the church, whom Augustine called Christians, who believed in universal salvation, and still no decree from any council stating that a belief in an "eternal hell" was necessary to sound faith. The valley was the scene of human sacrifices, burned in the worship of Moloch (2 Kings 16:3 and 21:6), which accounts for the prophecy of Jeremiah that it would be called the Valley of Slaughter under judgment of God (Jer. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. The earliest explicit reference to the valley as a garbage dump is from the twelfth century AD, but circumstantial evidence in Jeremiah suggests this probably was true even in his time. If it is Isaiah, then you cannot take this prophet to invalidate what Christ himself taught. Click the card to flip But this doesn't give you the right to twist his words. For now, just notice the term as . So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. Centuries later Gehenna had become the garbage dump of Jerusalem. garbage heap, junk heap, junk pile, refuse heap . Of course you must look towards anti-Origenists to find out about that, not admirers of the man who swept his errors (with which they didn't agree) under the carpet like Eusebius or Rufinus. The three layers of Hades were called glooms for good reason; they were realms devoid of emotion, hope, and peace. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! So no "this verse could be left out" reasoning. Yes, that Origen took the idea of universal salvation to its extreme (though it is unclear how far he actually believed this to be factual or whether he was simply engaging in an experiment of thought) and it was this extreme form that was shocking to many Christians. He remarked, Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called Gehenna.. 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